> I find it telling that women distressed by the election’s outcome are looking to East Asia for answers.
There is a real difference in the agency women have about voting (lots) compared to dating (much less). While women get the up/down choice on dating, men are still left to lead the engagement. The admission that Bumble was going to let women initiate has failed is a good example that "nothing has changed." Women can make a big splash in politics, but in dating... they are still in the reactive role. Any man that understands his role will see that - he offers, she screens. And it's not an entirely rationale process, often not at all.
When he is more attractive (in behavior, as much as looks), when he makes better offers, her politics will take a backseat to stronger, more ancient motivations.
I live in Japan. I've watched dating here, vs my home country. And the anime/manga look is an aesthetic. In dating (at least), it flies against traditional roles. Of the Westerners in Japan, a disproportionate amount are "all in," with presumably straight males erring toward the look of a Japanese HS girl... taking it too far to make sure you can't miss it.
If America did sink in the financial crisis (good date to the fix the origin of the crisis), and then the "turn" happened in ~2013, with the onset of non-binary/trannie culture (along with everything "underprivileged"), what aesthetics was the culture offering consumers? women? men? In a shallow/surface level, what did it look like?
That so many right-wing men have cartoon girl avatars, is certainly "unusual." Some might call it weird. You might notice that while the "cartoon girl as identity" is remarkably common with men, it is universal with the "incels" (the least successful among us). Even gun culture online will be mixed with "cutesy-isms" and anime-identification. It's a strange aesthetic. Like someone that doesn't know how to dress, putting on articles of clothing with no sense of how they work together, or the effect the ensemble will produce. If that creates chaos in the dating market, that might be expected.
If the culture is ready for a return of masculinity (more Top Guy, less The Devil Wears Prada), I think we'll see the influence of "cartoon girls" decline in the aesthetic, at least in the US. There was good commentary yesterday (calling back to the summer) of Trump bringing in a "Macho" culture, and how that appeals to the male vote. For right-ists, that will be a better fit - were there more attractive male symbols, more men might pick them up, and put them on. And as there are examples in the culture beyond "bald dudes with lipstick wearing dresses" (I am thinking of vaulted Biden appointees, and Admiral Miss Whathisname), young men will have better, more appropriate examples to draw from. Traditionally successful icons may inspire traditionally successful behavior - they are of the same kind.
Coming back to women, specifically in dating, their role is reactive. Women are often surprised by what they are attracted to, particular when their education has been so far from natural roles (when you have the wrong priors, everything is surprising). As men pick up more appropriate symbols, lots of women will find themselves attracted to those traditional roles. And then "what they say on Tik Tok" will be a reaction to the reaction... and dysfunctional trends in Korea will have less air to breathe.
I love Japan. And most American men are not terribly different from Japanese men of the same age. But in terms of "suggested roles," the Swagger of America (which is more of an idea, than a popular choice) is deeply rooted, and in many way more attractive than "cartoon girls" as an aesthetic. America is ready for better symbols - when they become available.
If America can source better symbols than endless adoration for trannies and the "gay," the presence of better, more natural choices for men should make stronger roles for those men easier to choose, and dating will straighten out, in many ways. No one should expect the women to lead the way... it's not how it works.
The feminization of American culture implicated in your examples (i.e. cutesyisms) are merely reflective of internal contradictions of internet culture at large. Outside of that, however, the right-wing movement still continues to pride themselves in traditional images macho masculinity. The endless adoration of "tr@##!%s and the "gay"" you described is not phenomenon I have noticed predominate American culture outside of their niche subcultures and performative liberal circles.
> The endless adoration of "tr@##!%s and the "gay"" you described is not phenomenon I have noticed predominate American culture outside of their niche subcultures and performative liberal circles.
Yeah. I'm not saying rightwing guys are full "non binary" - but that "right of center" men would have a female cartoon as their avatar, is a strange phenomenon. Imagine if 30 years ago of 1000s of men had Wonder Woman as their "badge of identity," it would seem weird. And it should.
Too much "Marvel/DC" male hero identification may also be juvenile (and to a degree, it is), but female anime icons used by men (I see this every day, and these are not typical lefty/prog guys) is a strange contradiction.
> cutesyisms) are merely reflective of internal contradictions of internet culture at large
Yes.
There is a separate thing here about "the desire to be 'ingroup.'" Wanting to be safely within "the herd" is very common in female psych, and for "average" unnoticeable, ineffective men. Being nice, fitting in - both sexes do it, but it's attractive in women, and "harmless" in men. Some of the "look, I have a female anime icon too!" is this "beta," "I'm on of you" ingroup seeking in those men. It's understandable, but self-defeating in terms of what women classically respond to.
A lot of the right of center guys using female anime symbols might have chosen pepe 5 years ago. Also juvenile, and "ingroup seeking," but not specifically feminine.
This is why I have an attitude (and I do) about the influence of anime. If anime had more "macho masculine," if that was what was being picked up, I would personally see that as adaptive - particularly if we come back around to the "impact on women, and men's agency in dating." But men "identifying" with female cartoons is a bad look for men, and will bring out disgust and dismissal from women.
If women are going to "tell men how it is," and the men are all identifying with "quirky anime girls," those men seem unlikely to even pretend to have the gravitas to straighten those women out, to put dating/mating back into more successful roles. The anime boys are helpless in a world of 4B women... and they deserve each other.
Whereas a more masculine image won't care about "what the girls on Tik Tok" are talking about (they won't know, they won't care, and they won't act like they care), will make strong masculine offers, which have a historically predictable reaction in women (they like strong masculine behavior). Those roles lead to more successful coupling that western girls aping the worst of Korean non-breeding, and western men aping the "feminine-but-ironic" icons from Japan. None of makes any sense.
"This is why I have an attitude (and I do) about the influence of anime. If anime had more "macho masculine," if that was what was being picked up, I would personally see that as adaptive - particularly if we come back around to the "impact on women, and men's agency in dating." But men "identifying" with female cartoons is a bad look for men, and will bring out disgust and dismissal from women."
Adapting an feminine online personna or as a profile pic does not objectively equate to femininity in real life. In most cases, I view it as roleplaying or admiration for said character moreso than personally identifying with them thus having very little bearing on in-person dating rituals. If anything, chronically online behavioral traits are what's holding back not only men but modern-day society in general from forming relationships.
While anime fandom are reflective of these characteristics, many masculine spaces such as the MGTOW community are self-perpetuating victims as they waste more of their time on the internet complaining about the demise of traditional masculine values than going out in the real world to address their grievances and act out the roles they claim to promote.
Regarding 4B in America, political polarization may blunt its effectiveness.
4B will most likely be done by progressive women. They likely do not hang out with anyone right-leaning. Therefore, they will never date right-leaning men regardless of election results. Thus there are no right-wing men to punish.
That leaves moderate or left-wing men, who likely voted “correctly” yet will be punished anyway - and that can turn them into right-wing men.
That leaves the option of bullying other women into 4B by mocking or denouncing any woman who dates a man (or maybe just those who date the right-wing men they want to punish.) But that can backfire too, driving *women* toward the Right, just as perceived anti-male attitudes drove men rightward.
Then there’s the simple fact that feminists already have an anti-male reputation, so a change probably won’t even be noticed.
What these women end up doing is their choice, their prerogative. I just don’t think it will play out the way they hope.
Interesting choice of your last word, there. 4B seems to me more an expression of the opposite. But this goes deeper than any single meme. The fact this outside trend is being talked about at all is the real point.
Fantastic post.
> I find it telling that women distressed by the election’s outcome are looking to East Asia for answers.
There is a real difference in the agency women have about voting (lots) compared to dating (much less). While women get the up/down choice on dating, men are still left to lead the engagement. The admission that Bumble was going to let women initiate has failed is a good example that "nothing has changed." Women can make a big splash in politics, but in dating... they are still in the reactive role. Any man that understands his role will see that - he offers, she screens. And it's not an entirely rationale process, often not at all.
When he is more attractive (in behavior, as much as looks), when he makes better offers, her politics will take a backseat to stronger, more ancient motivations.
I live in Japan. I've watched dating here, vs my home country. And the anime/manga look is an aesthetic. In dating (at least), it flies against traditional roles. Of the Westerners in Japan, a disproportionate amount are "all in," with presumably straight males erring toward the look of a Japanese HS girl... taking it too far to make sure you can't miss it.
If America did sink in the financial crisis (good date to the fix the origin of the crisis), and then the "turn" happened in ~2013, with the onset of non-binary/trannie culture (along with everything "underprivileged"), what aesthetics was the culture offering consumers? women? men? In a shallow/surface level, what did it look like?
That so many right-wing men have cartoon girl avatars, is certainly "unusual." Some might call it weird. You might notice that while the "cartoon girl as identity" is remarkably common with men, it is universal with the "incels" (the least successful among us). Even gun culture online will be mixed with "cutesy-isms" and anime-identification. It's a strange aesthetic. Like someone that doesn't know how to dress, putting on articles of clothing with no sense of how they work together, or the effect the ensemble will produce. If that creates chaos in the dating market, that might be expected.
If the culture is ready for a return of masculinity (more Top Guy, less The Devil Wears Prada), I think we'll see the influence of "cartoon girls" decline in the aesthetic, at least in the US. There was good commentary yesterday (calling back to the summer) of Trump bringing in a "Macho" culture, and how that appeals to the male vote. For right-ists, that will be a better fit - were there more attractive male symbols, more men might pick them up, and put them on. And as there are examples in the culture beyond "bald dudes with lipstick wearing dresses" (I am thinking of vaulted Biden appointees, and Admiral Miss Whathisname), young men will have better, more appropriate examples to draw from. Traditionally successful icons may inspire traditionally successful behavior - they are of the same kind.
Coming back to women, specifically in dating, their role is reactive. Women are often surprised by what they are attracted to, particular when their education has been so far from natural roles (when you have the wrong priors, everything is surprising). As men pick up more appropriate symbols, lots of women will find themselves attracted to those traditional roles. And then "what they say on Tik Tok" will be a reaction to the reaction... and dysfunctional trends in Korea will have less air to breathe.
I love Japan. And most American men are not terribly different from Japanese men of the same age. But in terms of "suggested roles," the Swagger of America (which is more of an idea, than a popular choice) is deeply rooted, and in many way more attractive than "cartoon girls" as an aesthetic. America is ready for better symbols - when they become available.
If America can source better symbols than endless adoration for trannies and the "gay," the presence of better, more natural choices for men should make stronger roles for those men easier to choose, and dating will straighten out, in many ways. No one should expect the women to lead the way... it's not how it works.
The feminization of American culture implicated in your examples (i.e. cutesyisms) are merely reflective of internal contradictions of internet culture at large. Outside of that, however, the right-wing movement still continues to pride themselves in traditional images macho masculinity. The endless adoration of "tr@##!%s and the "gay"" you described is not phenomenon I have noticed predominate American culture outside of their niche subcultures and performative liberal circles.
> The endless adoration of "tr@##!%s and the "gay"" you described is not phenomenon I have noticed predominate American culture outside of their niche subcultures and performative liberal circles.
Yeah. I'm not saying rightwing guys are full "non binary" - but that "right of center" men would have a female cartoon as their avatar, is a strange phenomenon. Imagine if 30 years ago of 1000s of men had Wonder Woman as their "badge of identity," it would seem weird. And it should.
Too much "Marvel/DC" male hero identification may also be juvenile (and to a degree, it is), but female anime icons used by men (I see this every day, and these are not typical lefty/prog guys) is a strange contradiction.
> cutesyisms) are merely reflective of internal contradictions of internet culture at large
Yes.
There is a separate thing here about "the desire to be 'ingroup.'" Wanting to be safely within "the herd" is very common in female psych, and for "average" unnoticeable, ineffective men. Being nice, fitting in - both sexes do it, but it's attractive in women, and "harmless" in men. Some of the "look, I have a female anime icon too!" is this "beta," "I'm on of you" ingroup seeking in those men. It's understandable, but self-defeating in terms of what women classically respond to.
A lot of the right of center guys using female anime symbols might have chosen pepe 5 years ago. Also juvenile, and "ingroup seeking," but not specifically feminine.
This is why I have an attitude (and I do) about the influence of anime. If anime had more "macho masculine," if that was what was being picked up, I would personally see that as adaptive - particularly if we come back around to the "impact on women, and men's agency in dating." But men "identifying" with female cartoons is a bad look for men, and will bring out disgust and dismissal from women.
If women are going to "tell men how it is," and the men are all identifying with "quirky anime girls," those men seem unlikely to even pretend to have the gravitas to straighten those women out, to put dating/mating back into more successful roles. The anime boys are helpless in a world of 4B women... and they deserve each other.
Whereas a more masculine image won't care about "what the girls on Tik Tok" are talking about (they won't know, they won't care, and they won't act like they care), will make strong masculine offers, which have a historically predictable reaction in women (they like strong masculine behavior). Those roles lead to more successful coupling that western girls aping the worst of Korean non-breeding, and western men aping the "feminine-but-ironic" icons from Japan. None of makes any sense.
My two cents.
"This is why I have an attitude (and I do) about the influence of anime. If anime had more "macho masculine," if that was what was being picked up, I would personally see that as adaptive - particularly if we come back around to the "impact on women, and men's agency in dating." But men "identifying" with female cartoons is a bad look for men, and will bring out disgust and dismissal from women."
Adapting an feminine online personna or as a profile pic does not objectively equate to femininity in real life. In most cases, I view it as roleplaying or admiration for said character moreso than personally identifying with them thus having very little bearing on in-person dating rituals. If anything, chronically online behavioral traits are what's holding back not only men but modern-day society in general from forming relationships.
While anime fandom are reflective of these characteristics, many masculine spaces such as the MGTOW community are self-perpetuating victims as they waste more of their time on the internet complaining about the demise of traditional masculine values than going out in the real world to address their grievances and act out the roles they claim to promote.
Regarding 4B in America, political polarization may blunt its effectiveness.
4B will most likely be done by progressive women. They likely do not hang out with anyone right-leaning. Therefore, they will never date right-leaning men regardless of election results. Thus there are no right-wing men to punish.
That leaves moderate or left-wing men, who likely voted “correctly” yet will be punished anyway - and that can turn them into right-wing men.
That leaves the option of bullying other women into 4B by mocking or denouncing any woman who dates a man (or maybe just those who date the right-wing men they want to punish.) But that can backfire too, driving *women* toward the Right, just as perceived anti-male attitudes drove men rightward.
Then there’s the simple fact that feminists already have an anti-male reputation, so a change probably won’t even be noticed.
What these women end up doing is their choice, their prerogative. I just don’t think it will play out the way they hope.
Interesting choice of your last word, there. 4B seems to me more an expression of the opposite. But this goes deeper than any single meme. The fact this outside trend is being talked about at all is the real point.
Yeah, that aspect is interesting, since American women took a specifically East Asian protest movement and applied it to themselves.
How so?